The Dangers of Bad Advice

I was reading a Facebook discussion about an article that advised against warning shots, a position I agree with, when an individual whose profile suggests that he’s a real estate and litigation attorney asked “Who ever said you had to aim to kill? Why isn’t kneecapping adequate?”

This goes against EVERY recommendation from training courses or criminal defense lawyers I’ve ever encountered, including several books that are somewhat standard in the self-defense training industry (Massad Ayoob’s “In the Gravest Extreme” and more recently, Andrew Branca’s “The Law Of Self Defense”).

Here is the exchange, after the initial question above:

James Cochrane If you admit to deliberately aiming for the knees, you are admitting that you weren’t facing an imminent threat of death or serious injury, which means you weren’t legally justified in using lethal force to begin with. Shooting them in the leg/arm is Hollywood, not real life.

RealEstateLawyer James Cochrane nonsense, not shooting to kill shows you did not want or intend to kill in response to threat of deadly force. Nobody said you had to meet deadly force with deadly force. I’m those situations deadly force is permissible but not mandatory.

James Cochrane RealEstateLawyer First off, you’re not shooting to kill, you’re shooting to STOP. Which is most effective by shooting center of mass. Legs and arms are mobile targets, which are extremely difficult to hit, especially under stress, and may not stop the assailant’s attack.
So if you aren’t shooting to stop, the argument can easily be made that you had no legal basis to shoot to begin with.
Have you had formal training? I’m not aware of ANY formal training program that teaches anything OTHER than shooting to stop.

James Cochrane Oh, and shooting AT ALL is deadly force, even shooting in the leg counts as deadly force.

James Cochrane RealEstateLawyer Are you a lawyer or certified instructor? Because at this point you are giving extremely BAD advice which could result in someone facing murder charges.

RealEstateLawyer Other User use bird shot and shoot for the crotch. You’ll likely be get both legs and the lower abdomen but even if he dies you can beat a charge of first degree murder

RealEstateLawyer James Cochrane obviously, but not with intent to cause death

RealEstateLawyer James Cochrane go back and read what I’m saying. If you shoot low and only cripple then there will be no murder and no murder charge.

James Cochrane Let’s see, a crotch shot with bird shot, which likely means opening the femoral artery, how is that NOT a shot likely to cause death or serious bodily injury?

I hope you have good legal malpractice insurance, you’ll need it.

RealEstateLawyer James Cochrane so no matter where I aim I’m guilty of murder? Nonsense. My point is that you are privileged to meet a threat of deadly force by using deadly force, but you are not required to shoot to kill. You can shot to wound or cripple at your option.

James Cochrane I highly suggest you talk to someone who specializes in criminal defense law, not real estate, as what you are saying is completely contrary to what every criminal defense lawyer and self-defense specialist I’ve trained under has said and/or published.

Other User How about I use bird shot and aim for the chest? If I’m shooting indoors at ranges of less than 10 yards, I think that’ll do just fine.

Other User I don’t care whether I’m “required” to shoot to kill. I’m not shooting someone for shits and giggles. If it’s serious enough that I’m pulling the trigger, someone is going to die.

RealEstateLawyer Other User yoi are saying that you would never shoot except to kill someone? Big talk- you ever kill anyone?

Other User Two RealEstateLawyer – are you an attorney? Do you have any law enforcement experience? Experience teaching self defense?
Do you have any firearm experience at all?

James Cochrane Other User Two Per his profile, he IS an attorney, but all of his listed coursework and experience is in real estate and commercial litigation, not criminal defense law.

James Cochrane Which is why I suggest he may need to check his malpractice insurance.

James Cochrane Of course, I would hope that ANY attorney would understand the difference between murder and a self-defense shooting, but that isn’t evident in the above conversation, either.

Other User RealEstateLawyer, I have not killed anyone, and yes, I am saying I would NOT shoot someone except if I intended to kill them. If it’s not serious enough for it to be a life or death situation, I’m not going to shoot another person. “Shooting to wound” is just stupid.

Other User James Cochrane, I think the main thing we have all learned from this thread is that we should NEVER EVER go to RealEstateLawyer for any legal advice. 😄😄😄
Other User Two Other User – I disagree, to an extent. We don’t shoot to wound. We don’t shoot to kill. We shoot to stop the threat.
“I was in fear for my life, and I believed I had no reasonable choice than to use defend myself with my firearm. I will give a detailed statement after I have consulted with my attorney. I am invoking my 5th Amendment rights after I have had such an opportunity.”

Other User Other User Two, technically correct, but we aim for center body mass (not kneecaps) when shooting to stop the threat, and we keep shooting until the threat is neutralized. Practically speaking, that’s basically what would be called “shoot to kill.”

After posting this on my own wall, I got the following responses

James Cochrane From an internationally known competitive shooter I know:

Have first hand knowledge of a competitive pistol shooter (Pistol Distinguished/Master) who shot a would-be carjacker in the elbow after snap shooting him through the driver’s side door as the carjacker’s gun was in his face. After the first shot, bad guy staggers back and falls on his back on the driveway dropping the pistol a few feet away. Good guy gets out of the car and gives him a command to freeze, etc. Bad guy reaches for the dropped pistol-good guy deliberately aims for the forearm/elbow and hits the elbow of the reaching arm-nearly severing the arm (.45 ACP/230 gr. Hydra Shocks). Later sued for intent to maim and loses big $$$

Another Instructor “Are you a lawyer or certified instructor? Because at this point you are giving extremely BAD advice which could result in someone facing murder charges”
I’m a certified concealed carry instructor. This is extremely *GOOD* Advice. Masaad Ayoob, Andrew Branca, etc… will all tell you the same thing – you do not shoot to ‘wound’ or ‘disarm’ – because, as you stated initially James, not shooting for center of mass is indicative of you not truly fearing for your health and continued wellbeing.
Rarely is someone such a good stressful shooter that they can hit with pinpoint accuracy – and trust me, at north of 7 yards, it *IS* pinpoint accuracy, under stressed circumstances. If they *ARE* that good of a shooter? The courts don’t care.
I’ll go one step further and add, you never EVER fire a warning shot, either, for the same reason.
Contact the Bar where this guy’s located. What he’s doing is extreme malfeasance if he promotes that to any client, and one could maek the argument that even by stating it publicly, he’s advocating it. I’m not aware of a single state that offers any legal protection for sharpshooters shooting defensively.

A Lawyer I Know Having spent 35 years as a criminal defense attorney and currently a senior trial prosecuting attorney, I can say that Real Estate Lawyer is an idiot and James Cochrane is correct.